Aerobic Swimming 101

By David

Coach Kimberly is the very good West Auckland Aquatic’s Assistant Coach. She will be horrified when she discovers I have written this story. It would be difficult to find a more pacific and gentle human being. Please do not attribute to her the shortcomings of those she works with and who write for an internet swimming blog.

Coach Kimberly recently took part in a Swimming New Zealand coaching accreditation course. Part of the weekend program involved watching the Millennium Institute’s coaches take a training session. When the course ended I was interested to hear what she had seen and learned.

She mentioned that she was surprised at the difference between the “aerobic” training used in our program and the “aerobic” training demonstrated at the Millennium Institute. I asked if she had an example of an aerobic schedule used on her course. Could I see it? She did have an example. Here is what had been written on the Millennium Institute’s white board. This is what Scott Talbot, New Zealand’s senior performance swimming coach, paid by the state purse, gave to the swimmers on the course as an aerobic training schedule.

AM: AEROBIC AND SKILLS

4×150 – 50 free and 50 fist closed and 50 free or back – sc take 1 less every 150

2×100 – kick NB on 4 positions

2×150 – back 6 underwater kicks off the walls, good streamlines and breakouts

2×100 – kick NB on 4 positions

2×150 – Pull Buoy, 100 moderate and 50 breathe 5 hard

8×25 – fins, odd underwater 15 fast, even dead start flags to flags sprint

Aerobic: Heart Rate 50 beats below maximum

1×200 – on 3.00 then 4×50 # 1 drill main stroke

2×200 – on 2.55 then 4×50 “King Fish” tumble main stroke

3×200 – on 2.50 then 4×50 free jump outs

4×200 – on 2.45 then 4×50 sprint middle 20 meters as a “King Fish” tumble

Dives and skills

I could see the reason for Coach Kimberly’s confusion. Aerobic conditioning at West Auckland Aquatics is based on the teachings of Lydiard and Jelley. I began my coaching career in a sport where aerobic conditioning meant spending three hours running at a firm pace through the Waitakere Ranges, or along forest trails in Boulder, Colorado or down a dusty road in Kenya’s Rift Valley. What did Scott Talbot’s fruit salad mix of interval repetitions have to do with that sort of international aerobic conditioning? The answer, of course, is not a damn thing!

Most certainly aerobic means the same thing in the world of swimming as it does in running. The problems highlighted by Scott Talbot’s program are specific to the Millennium Institute. All New Zealand swimming coaches should not be tarnished by what goes on over there. Scott Talbot’s program is not aerobic training. The author is clearly having a joke with his swimmers or has no idea what the word aerobic means.

I do not know whether Scott Talbot has ever been taught the meaning of aerobic. While Wikipedia may not be the soundest source of coaching information, Scott Talbot could learn a thing or two by reading its definition of aerobic exercise. It is pretty accurate.

“Aerobic exercise is physical exercise of relatively low intensity and long duration, which depends primarily on the aerobic energy system. Aerobic means “with oxygen”, and refers to the use of oxygen in the body’s metabolic or energy-generating process. Many types of exercise are aerobic, and by definition are performed at moderate levels of intensity for extended periods of time.”

As you can see the emphasis is on low or moderate levels of intensity for long or extended periods of time. There is none of that in Scott Talbot’s program. In fact, it is full of expressions common to tough anaerobic training programs. For example:

  1. Breathe every five strokes hard. Scott Talbot even underlines the word hard in case we hadn’t got the point that he, alone in the world, thinks that 2×150 done hard fits comfortably into an aerobic training schedule.
  2. 8×25 underwater 15 meters fast. I didn’t notice the word fast in Wikipedia’s definition. Come to think of it, in ten years of listening to Lydiard and Jelley discuss the importance of aerobic training I never heard them use the word fast. Scott Talbot clearly knows something these two missed.
  3. Dead start, flags to flags sprint. Now here’s something new – aerobic sprints. Scott Talbot introduces the world to swimming’s version of the attraction of opposites.
  4. 4×50 jump outs. This exercise involves sprinting 25 meters, climbing out to run around the starting block and sprinting 25 meters back down the pool. Even the most generous Millennium supporter might find that stretching the definition of low intensity for a long duration. It will be valuable though, when sprinting around the starting blocks becomes an Olympic event.
  5. Sprint middle 20 meters as a “King Fish” tumble. A “King Fish” turn involves diving under the water at the flags, turning under the water and swimming to the flags again before coming back to the surface. Aerobic primarily means “with oxygen”. I’m not sure why Scott Talbot would include an exercise clearly designed to deprive the swimmer of oxygen in a program that he twice labels “aerobic”.
  6. Even the idea of descending a set of 200s is hard to characterize as truly aerobic.

The good news is that Scott Talbot includes a definition of aerobic swimming in his program. He says swimmers should hold a heart rate of 50 beats below their maximum. That’s a pretty good guide. A swimmer with a maximum heart rate of 210 beats per minute should stay under 160. What is impossible of course is to “sprint” the “hard”, “fast”, “King Fish”, “jump out” intervals in Scott Talbot’s program and still be under a 160 beats a minute heart rate.

All this wouldn’t be too bad if the only people affected were the swimmers at the Millennium Institute. Surely they know enough about swimming to realize they are being asked to do aerobic schedules that are not what their coach says they are. I asked Olympic gold medalist, Rhi Jeffrey, if Scott Talbot’s program met her understanding of an aerobic schedule. I thought she was going to die laughing.

The really sad aspect of a program like this is that Scott Talbot is employed by SNZ to tutor young coaches. Let’s hope he researches the meaning of “aerobic” before he tries to convince the next class of trainee coaches that 8×25 meter sprints is a sound bit of aerobic conditioning. Anyone paying $400 or so for their Bronze coaching accreditation has a right to expect better than the nonsense he dished up on this occasion. Last Wednesday morning our swim team did an aerobic program. It was our version of a 24 mile run through the Waitakere Ranges. Many coaches will not like what we did or think it was necessary. They are entitled to that view. What cannot be argued is whether it was authentic aerobic conditioning; warm up 1000 kick, main set 1×8000 IM, warm down 1000 kick. I first saw that schedule swum by Phillippa Langrell at a training camp in Blenheim. Her coach knew the meaning of aerobic.

  • Rhi Jeffrey

    I did almost die laughing. Seems a lot of your NZ coaches need to be educated on what constitutes aerobic training and what constitutes a taper training session. Aerobic…. I don’t think Scott Talbot would know a good coach if one came up and punched him in the face, which it seems should be done after this gem.

  • Paul Kent

    David, I would question that an 8000 IM could be swam as an aerobic set. There would not be to many swimmers in the world (if any) that could keep their heart rate in the aerobic zone, hold consistent stroke counts/length and develop better technique and skills thru a set like that unless the competitive technique in Fly, Breast and u/w/k pullouts where compromised.

    I also prefer to see A2 swimming swum at a heart rate of 60 – 90 BBM (or 120-150 bpm) for the older athlete….and the swimmer focusing on getting really fast at it!

    A true Aerobic 8000 would consist of the 2 Aerobic strokes – Free and Back – personally I think it’s a brain dead set for the swimmers, especially developing swimmers.

    Maybe Scott should have been clearer with that set. Perhaps the explanation he should have given was that he was buffering the Anaerobic components (4×50) and ATP -PC sprints (8×25) with Aerobic swimming (150 (except the 2×150 5 hard) 100s and the 200 set) for base work “touching” and recovery from AN work within the set.

    I like the set he wrote – and it’s unfair to judge Scott on that set (apart from, as you pointed out, it was not a pure Aerobic set) Personally with USA and Worlds just around the corner I probably would have completed the high volume Aerobic Base work by now too – especially for the sprinters….but in saying that I haven’t got a swimmer on that team so maybe I have got my comments completely wrong

    Cheers PK

  • concerned

    Hi David

    I am not going to comment on Scotts session, because I am sure you have a point. But have one point I would like to add.

    The Swimming database in Auckland of competitive swimmers 12 years and older is already horribly low, How on earth are we going to get children interested in swimming, if when they turn up to practice they find 8000m im on the board.

    If we dont make swimming interesting we are never going to compete for the leisure dollars of families that are already stretched, and who cares how good the aerobic capacity of the swimmer is, if they have packed it in before they finish school.

    We only have 2 decent 50m facilities in Auckland, and we have some serious extremes operating at each of these.

    I have to ask… specifically what events are you preparing your swimmers for? and so that I can become a better swimming professional, what benefit does swimming 8000m Medley have for these specific events. Do you make sure that the 8000m is done with good technique.

    To me this has the ingraining of bad habits written all over it!

  • TOOOOM

    8000m IM set? tese was swum by the east block countries. I remember it well. Do you know that was 25 years ago?
    Anyway we are in 21st century and training has evolved. If coaches considering set like that as usefull, well sory for the swimmers.
    Coaches get out of your confort zone and learn as much as you can. There is a lot to learn. Daily coaches comming up with new sets and ideas. Are you one of them?
    Copmment to Scotts sett. – Sorry to see something like that used as Aerobic set.

  • Concerned – Four swimmers did that set. Let me tell you about two of them. A year ago one of them had never swum in a NZ Championship final and did most of her training swimming at 20 strokes to each 25 meter length. Today her PBs over 50,100, 200, 400 and 800 freestyle are faster. She has swum in a NZ Open Championship final and swims her training at a faster speed in 15 strokes per 25 meters length. Her swimming just got a lot better and she’s very happy about that. That sounds like some bad habits I’d be quite happy for any swimmer to have ingrained.

    The other swimmer has swum the 8000 IM set on several occassions with me in the past. She is an Olympic Gold Medalist, a World Championship Gold Medalist, a US National Champion, a US National Record Holder and the most decorated swimmer in any swimming pool in NZ right now. I know of no one who would describe her swimming as ingrained bad habits – except Concerned of course. If her record is representative of bad swimming habits, they seem to work.

    And finally I happen to know from a direct conversation of one other swimmer who has swum this set. His name is Michael Phelps. But I guess Concerned is one of those who thinks he has a string of bad habits as well.

    It would help your education Concerned to look at several African 800 meter runners. These guys have run 200 plus kilometers a week for most of their lives If the theory that distance causes poor technique had any validity they should be stumbling wrecks by now. In fact, of course they are magnificent running human beings, gliding effortlessly across the track.

    I’m afraid, Concerned, the evidence says you are dead wrong. Lydiard proved long ago that you can enjoy sport and run or swim a long way at the same time. To enjoy youself it is not necessary to choose the easy and losing option.

    David

  • Rhi Jeffrey

    LOL dear concerned, you seem to be one of the ones who needs education. David would not make any 12 year old swim an 8000 IM…..

  • Just a note to anonymous commenters (TOOOOOM, for one) – if you’re easily identifiable due to the contents of your comment and the IP from which you sent your comment (mail.stpeters.school.nz), you may as well just leave your real name next time.

  • Paul Kent

    Jane, haha – thats a little unfair, anonymous commenters should be allowed to be anonymous commenters. Please allow privacy to those that feel the need too have it.

  • Concerned – one further thought I forgot to add earlier. Are you aware that as your trendy fun and games swimming programs have become more popular around New Zealand the number of participants has declined at its most rapid rate. It’s your programs that aren’t working, that are causing young swimmers to leave the sport in unprecedented numbers

    When swimming was about an honest days work and winning international races we had twice the membership. You can not call proper aerobic swimming “old fashioned” and blame it for all swimmings modern problems at the same time. It wasn’t our program that caused the problem – it is yours. Like “modern” religion, your program doesn’t work.

  • Rhi Jeffrey

    Screw that, if you don’t have the balls to reveal who you are it’s pretty damn easy to ridicule people. Pussys……

  • Hee! You should be glad I didn’t out “concerned” since he left his real email address ;-) – the same email address he used to sign up to Facebook, in fact.

    The “should be allowed” argument is weak given that this isn’t the anonymous commeters’ website. It’s ours. The “we should be allowed to be anonymous on the website you pay for and maintain” debate is way older than this post (I’m frankly bored with it, after five years of working exclusively online) and the conclusion is always the same: They leave us their data and thus we do what we like with it. If they don’t want to leave that data, they must figure out how to be truly anonymous, or stop taking part.

  • Rhi Jeffrey

    Paul, I can see where you would be concerned that an 8000 IM might not fit into the usual standards of “aerobic” based on the fact that it is indeed difficult for swimmers of a certain caliber to keep their heart rates at an acceptable level. However, it should be mentioned that before a set like this David always makes it a point to let everyone who might be at that lower level know that fins are an option, doing 25 fly/25 back is an option, that modifying the distance is an option (for the younger kids) etc. David is way smarter as a coach than a lot of people seem to want to give him credit for, which is baffling to me seeing as he has proven himself time and time again. So to address your comment about it being a dead brain set for developing swimmers, not all of us do it exactly as it is written. David will tweak it depending on the person who will be swimming it. One of the biggest faults I have noticed in coaches is their lack of ability to recognize that EVERY PERSON IS DIFFERENT! What works for me might not work for everyone else. The best American coaches (like Mark Schubert) have realized this and instill this in their swimmers. David uses this philosophy every day which is a HUGE reason I moved across the WORLD to train with him. But I must give you kudos. At least you have the balls to post with your real name.

    Concerned, after reading your posts it answers a lot of my questions of why America beats New Zealand in swimming constantly; coaches like you. Sadly, because of the internet (and mainly facebook) nowadays, I know who you are and it saddens me to find out you are a coach yourself. It makes me feel bad for the swimmers you will inevitably destroy with your ignorance. I said before, David does not make 12 year olds do an 8000 IM set, that would be ridiculous. The problem I am seeing in my short time here in NZ is not the lack of interest in your young swimmers, but the rate of burnout. I see 12 year olds swimming in meets every weekend and swimming 15 races a meet. NO ONE from the US that I knew at that age swam anything NEAR this on that regular a basis. No WONDER you have a high drop out rate, I would have been long gone at an early age if that’s the crap I would have had to put up with. And “who cares how good the aerobic capacity of the swimmer is”? Are you serious?? EVERY Olympian I know in the US has done aerobic training at a young age. EVERY ONE OF THEM. Even the sprinters. So, I guess the people you are mentioning, the ones who shouldn’t care about the aerobic capacity, will be the ones sitting at home watching London 2012 on their couches. Everyone needs a cheering section though I suppose. :) Oh and just a little side note, I have 3 people who train with me on a regular basis and do the 8000 IM type sets with me and each one of us has a different set of events ranging from sprint and distance free to fly and breast as well. So to answer your question about what events we are being prepared for… well all of them. But I guess with my (and as David said Michael Phelps’) ingrained bad habits we are all going nowhere huh?

    TOOOOM, you are so right there is a lot to learn, but you should take a page from your own book. Learn as much as YOU can as well…. I guess you should feel sorry for Michael Phelps then? Personally I think he’s living rather well after 2008, but that could just be me…..

  • Paul Kent

    Jane, – you haven’t changed grrrr :) your medium – your call 

    David – Concerned has a point, and I sense the meaning behind the comment was in the best interest of Swimming in NZ- rightly or wrongly with those comments – we DEFINATELY need to attract swimmers back to the sport… and a 10k session for a newbie…. well I’m sure your intellect can see the different angels here!

    We do need to compete with “quick result” sports such as water polo (catch and throw a ball? ….and you can swim? you’re in the NZ development team, and here is your T shirt etc)

    I believe that on the whole, most Clubs and coaches see each other as the competition, but were not, our competition is in fact every other sporting code looking for that next champion or super star – swimming needs results, we need a star, sorry, many stars! – and then we will regain the interest again.

    Rhi – 10km – AWESOME! you must be getting fit! I must say that I am very excited to see you in the pool racing….especially rested and tapered!!

    I’m not taking a swipe at your coach, or your programme far from it, I enjoyed disecting the sets to be honests (easy really :)) ..keep enjoying the journey (most important) and do as Nike would do :)

  • TOOOOM

    Jane and rest of you. At first I dont need to be anonymous. And it wasnt my intention.
    And honestly instad of looking a problems we start picking on details . Thats is our problem. I have my opinion. As everyone is alowed to have one.
    You guys let your 10years old swim 800Im or even 1200Im . But using Phelps as an example is great.
    Anyway thise should be a forum of opinions. If you wish to pick on people well guess I am in wrong pace.

  • Earl

    With only being coaching back in NZ for little over the year, I hardly think David’s 8000IM can be contributed to the decline in 12 and over competitive swmiiners in NZ. From what I hear the decline had started a number of years ago. But I do agree that swimming must be interesting for the younger age groups coming through. However there are only so many was you can make a black line at the bottom of a pool interesting. Would the interest by the younger age groups be stronger and therefore swimmers maintained if NZ Swimming was performing better on the international stage. Who are the role models that the younger swimmes look up too? What I have experienced though is that the relaxed and also informal approach at WAQ, in my view offers a more enjoyable training environment than the traditional “Death by stopwatch” methods.

  • Rhi Jeffrey

    Sigh. Toooom, when you have an opinion on something, especially if it is a negative one and even more especially if you do it anonymously, expect to get responses to it. Do you think every response I’ve gotten in my life has been a positive one? HELL NO. In fact, most of my life I have dealt with the same kind of bullshit that most people give a great coach like David. There is a saying my mom always used to tell me that I will hold on to until the day I die: “It is lonely at the top”. Couldn’t be more true. If you do not wish to be ridiculed for an opinion, maybe you shouldn’t have one. And, more importantly, maybe you shouldn’t have one on this site about the man who is responsible for writing it.

  • Chris

    Guys, guys, guys …. some very passionate responses, but you are all on the same side. Surely the point here (and one which David has been writing about extensively) is the diversity of thought and coaching that should be seen as a strength, not a weakness, as opposed to the fallacy of some centralised coaching method which SNZ seems to think everyone up and down the country should buy into.

    All of the commentators here are experienced coaches (although I don’t know who Concerned is). David’s successes in the pool and track are without question, and watching Miss Jeffrey in the pool recently, I can understand why she would wish to travel half way around the world to seek his skills. You know what you will get with his programme, and a 8,000IM set placed in the right part of the cycle in his programme (obviously for selected swimmers) should not come as any surprise. And surely that is the point! That is what choice is about. You know what to expect with him as a coach.

    Equally, you know what to expect under Paul Kent who is a superb technician. Just watch his swimmers. That young lad that is now pushing Glenn Snyders in the breastroke, Paul apparently took him out of water-polo only a couple of years ago and basically started him from scratch. The proof is in the pudding. And I surmise that TOOOM is the St Peters coach who I have seen several times when he has brought his swimmers to various meets. He is clearly also a very very good technician, just watching him poolside, and has built that club from nothing in a only a few years.

    But also, Concerned’s comments about early attrition is extremely valid and one which is of concern (or should be a concern) for all passionate supporters and participants of this sport. We lose far too much talent at an early age.

    As for Mr Talbot – I know he seems to have lost his ‘mojo’ a bit with several defections, and clearly the changing rooms are not a happy place. But even I would never have picked that set as an example of aerobic.

    But I think it would be fair to say that you probably all agree on far more than you disagree.

    What I did have a good laugh about was just imagining Mike Byrne reading through these posts (especially Paul’s) and not having a bloody clue what you lot are on about, what A2 is, or ATP, or even u/w/k. I beat he wouldn’t even know the difference between aerobic or anaerobic. Honestly, how much longer do we have to put up with this clown?

  • Paul Newnham

    Chris (and all of you in fact),
    Here here, Maybe some healthy debate from passionate people is what we need more of!! You are all skilled in your own right. As a parent of an 11 year old swimming in David’s program I find the best regulator is my little athlete. This week she set herself a goal of swimming 30K. Her mother and I had nothing to do with inspiring this goal. we are the support network. She decided and then set about smashing her own goal. Her motivation I believe was the quiet words from coach telling her she was swimming really well. She loves David’s training, in fact punishment in her case is not training. When she trains she is in the pool with big guns who are fun and approachable. The atmosphere at training is light and enjoyable. It is this that makes them able to come back morning and night. The squad become like a family. The swimmers stick at it because its more than just training.
    I thank you all for your comments. Without healthy discussion and maybe a little stirring of emotions nothing will change for the better. Keep it up!!
    Regards,
    Paul

  • Paul Newnham

    Chris,
    PS to my last comment.
    Clowns are good fun but should not be in charge of the cheque book!!
    I think we all agree sport suffers when career administrators make the decisions.
    Thanks for the clown comment, gave me a great laugh.
    Regards,
    Paul

  • Swim Drop Out

    I am now a swim coach and have been teaching and coaching for the past 8 years. I myself am the product of a fed up with swimming programme. I left my own swimming dreams behind me when I was 14 years old. About the same time our NZ swimmers seem to quit. I made my clubs development squad when I was 8 years old and I was expected to swim 4 sessions a week at least. I swam with kids almost twice my age and size. I was pushed and pushed. more sessions, more speed, more more more. When finally I decided at 12 to move to another club. It seemed good at first, I got alot of extra attention which was good but then about 6 months into it the brainwashing begun, more sessions, more speed, more more more. Suddenly I was 12 years old swimming 4 nights a week plus 4 mornings. A 12 year old doing 8 sessions a week. Are you nuts. Of course I didn’t know this back then, And my parents were told that this is the training that swimming demands. Well, after another 6-8 months of this and losing more weight than I could keep up with I finally threw in the towel. Pushing me that hard to sprint all the time, and train so hard and so much got the better of me and I threw it away. And ever since it has always puzzled me as to why I just couldn’t do it.
    ……Thanks to David, now I know.
    I wish so much that I had met David back when I was barely a teenager. If only I had of met him and trained with him my life could have been so much different. Unfortunately my fate was sealed from the age of 8 and the choices of coaches available to me, I was always going to be a swimming failure.
    My goal in life now is to bring that passion back to swimming and understand that every individual is different and not every child is going to be an Olympic athlete. My youngest squad focuses on the enjoyment of swimming and the enjoyment of team spirit. I don’t push them I let them develop at their own rate. I don’t push them to compete but instead keep them hungry for it.
    David’s program is legend. If only more NZ coaches would give him the respect he deserves, rather than being quick to judge, realizing it works then being to much of a coward to admit to their past dumbass observations. A variety in swimming programmes available is a good thing. Something I never had. I have watched David coach and I have seen the programmes he gives the kids. And in no way are the programmes too much.
    The biggest lesson I’ve learnt from watching him is that “Its not what’s written on the board, It’s how it is swum”. In going back to Rhi’s comments about the 8000IM being written on the board, there is a variety of ways in which that is swum for each individual’s needs. The physiological effects are still the same throughout the squad but they all perform the set differently in order to get the same effect.

    Swimming School Drop Out.