Ethics - Having To Do With Moral Duty
It’s a big change and is unlikely to work. Already her new coach is telling the world Manaudou swam 5x400 meters this week under 4.40. I coached two swimmers in
Manaudou’s old coach, Philippe Lucas is quoted as saying he thinks Manaudou can’t stand the thought of another year of the distance he gives her – seventeen kilometers a day. That makes sense to me. I’ve had swimmers leave for the same reason. However, it highlights the ethics involved in changing coaches. Is a change being made for positive reasons, because something is genuinely not going right? Rhi and others left USC for this valid and reasonable motive. Or is the change being made in some frantic search for greener grass. One is ethical the other is not.
Manaudou would have us believe things were not right in Canet. She has said, “I needed a change.” That’s just rubbish. She’s going because her boyfriend is in
Some are probably going to say swimmers always have the right to change and that of course is true. The fact that something is able to be done does not however void consideration of its ethics. Many things are able to be done that good people do not do. Let me give you an example.
About eighteen months ago a mother brought a swimmer to our team. The swimmer was sixteen. She had been ranked in the nation’s top dozen swimmers as a twelve and thirteen year old. Since then her career had deteriorated, She was damaged physically and mentally as the mother carted her daughter to other Clubs searching for the girl’s pre-teen success.
As I say, she ended up at our door. Her mother was very specific. Her daughter’s pre-teen coach had damaged her daughter. He had pushed the girl too hard and had acted badly when she decided to attend the “wrong” high school.
The mother was right about one thing; the girl was a mess. She pulled out half way through her first race and I realized fast times would have to wait while we rehabilitated a broken soul. A combination of considerate training and selective racing seemed to work. She was faster, but not by much. She was however physically and mentally strong again. Even her pre-teen coach, the one blamed for all the damage said he had not seen her swim with such spirit since she was thirteen years old. He also explained to me that the mother had serious problems as he was sure I would soon find out.
The table below shows the swimmer’s 500 yard times over a number of years and gives you a statistical view of the story I’ve just relayed.
The swimmer came to us just after she’d swum the 5.30 (Column 11) and left eighteen months later after she’d swum 5.05 (Column 18). That’s right, she left because her mother said that the training wasn’t working. The part that really stole the whole bloody cake was she scampered off back to the team that according to her had caused the girl’s problems in the first place. And that beats even Laurie Manaudou.
Philippe Lucas has said he would never take Manaudou back. I can understand that. Arthur Lydiard, probably the world’s best ever middle distance track coach always said, “David, never take an athlete back.” I broke Lydiard’s rule on one special occasion. It looks like Lucas is not even going to do that.
As a fun aside, check out this piece written by Navtej Kohli about four popular sports and why they’re ... well, stupid. This is written in a rather “tongue in cheek” manner, as this guy actually loves sport.
37 Comments:
Laure Manaudou's decision does seem a bit selfish and strange. I read a report that Phillipe Lucas' wife was deeply hurt by the move, especially since she'd brought a younger Manaudou into their family's home and helped raise her.
What happens to her swimming remains to be seen. However, if I were a 200/400m freestyler in Europe right now, I'd be wanting to stay in Canet, rather than leave :)
that sort of things happens all the time among younger kids. razy parents dont help. i havent swam that long, i made one team change and it worked really well for me because i wasnt getting along with the original coach, i had friends on our rival team, so i jum ped ship to the rival team. im sure that coach would take me back, but thats only because i got ALOT better than i was before.
We used to call people who jumped from team to team "club sluts." Not a nice term, but there seems to be a subset of the swimming community who can't settle anywhere.
I was a member of four different clubs throughout a twelve year swimming career. I kind of had to join different clubs when I lived in different countries :P But I did know people who'd been members of four clubs in one city over a time period of about two years!
haha to club sluts! Never understood that either. Are those the people who end up getting married six times too!?
Gordon Andrews said:
David,
I know exactly what you are talking about. Thank God we are not in Broward County where 'team jumping' is even more of a common occurrence and the character traits of loyalty, commitment to a coach/program, and perseverance through tough times seems to be lacking.
The positive news is forgiveness, learning from one's past mistakes, forgetting, not burning bridges and moving on are in full force with this situation....and hopefully it carries on because they are good things.
As a younger coach (and still am very young compared to others, 11 years coaching only) I have learned valuable lessons. Experience is the best teacher but the most costly. An FGC official once told me a lesson I will never forget: as long as one runs a swim program, swimmers will come, and swimmers will go...get used to it.
I didn't want to hear it at the time, but as it sunk in it made sense. This was after a whole family left our team when a 10 & Under hot shot left when the parents (not the swimmer) had the big emotional let down when she aged up to 11-12.
It stinks when we as coaches put so much of our knowledge and energy in seeing swimmers reach there potential and then they jump ship. We currently have a potentially awesome group of 12 & unders, part of my job is to educate them...to enjoy the success, beware of plateaus and the occasional valleys in performances and always keep the big picture in mind if you intend your athlete/child to swim at a collegiate level.
How were things in New Zealand? Did this sort of thing happen often or were there geographical restrictions on such team jumping.
Anyway,
GA
It's fairly prevalent in New Zealand as well. I actually feel like it used to be worse than it is now. There are usually between 3 and 6 decent sized clubs in every city and there are a core group who jump around between clubs.
The parents' role is key in this whole thing. The relationship between athlete and coach is symbiotic, and for parents, especially those of younger athletes, this important, unusual relationship is often misunderstood.
Coaches need to guide parents and coach them as well. This is being done, and done well in some clubs, but unfortunately in some, it's not being addressed at all.
swimwidow
bull crap. all of it. bloody bull crap
Wow, what a fantastically insightful comment. Do elaborate.
Please.
I am sorry for the last anonymous...I keep reminding my daughter to keep her Irish temper under taps..save it when really needed.
G Andrews
Anyway the 120 Day rule FGC has is very significant...when I get swimmers from other teams and when swimmers leave my team they know they have 4 months to resolve issues with the previous coach...or move on. Competition between teams is good; us coaches who become attached to an athlete who we have poured our efforts into and then see that athlete bolt for 'greener' pastures is disheartening but sort of comes with the territory. I have seen a lot of swim careers salvaged and improved upon because a swimmer switched. As a former athlete I shopped for a pool in my town that had a no nonsense practice ethic with athletes who loved to race..I was doing the work....I deserve to work in an environment that was condusive to bring out the best in me...my parents were very open minded about letting me swim wherever I chose.
So, I look at my swimmers...if there are no signs of enjoyment in embracing the training and the racing aspect of this sport; perhaps it is time for them to switch teams and get fast somewhere else..either here or there or anywhere.
GA
thanks for a very insightful piece!
it's hurtful at times when swimmers leave- let's hope that both parties don't turn this into too much of a soap opera.
Haven't commented before, but have enjoyed many of your posts, especially the one about growing up swimming in the river.
looking forward to many more!
-bb-
I find this whole article very hurtful considering the fact that its about me. Hi, Im Alison Templin, the girl David wrote about, and I just want to get my side of the story told. When I came to Aqua Crest I was looking for a place to swim, where I could recover from Tendinitis in my right shoulder. After getting stronger and faster, yes I did start to believe in myself, but the only way I could go was up, considering the shape I was in.
But soon I wasn't getting ANYWHERE near my 5:04 time in the 500 Freestyle, and I could only swim a fast 200. I realized that maybe Davids program wasn't working for me, that maybe his training was more geared toward sprinters, seeing as he mainly had really fast 50 and 100 swimmers. Im not saying that David's program doesn't work at all, he has many fast sprinters and breaststrokers, like Andrew Meeder, and Rhi, Jon, and Lindsay Meeder. He bulit Aqua Crest up from 10 people on the team, and I think he's doing a good job.
I also want to clear up the fact that everyone is calling my mom one of those crazy moms who make all of their childs decision. I was the one that wanted to move, nobody made me. I also had to drive 40 min. to get to the pool to train there, and the drive was just getting too hard on me. The term 'Team Sluts' as Jane put it, is a bit dramatic. I DIDN'T jump around to teams because my mom made me. The first team I was on was NPB, but them my coach was diagnosed to LUCKEMIA and was unable to coach me anylonger. So I moved on to the old Aqua Crest, but them my team converged with another team to form FAST. I had to drive to Boca to go there and thats a 50-60 min drive. Scott also left the team, and so I was once again stuck wiothout a coach. As you can see, I had REASONS as to why I was moving around teams. And if anyone has a problem with it, get over it, and mind your own business.
I wish that David would just let the whole ordeal go, and to move on. He should have more important things to write about than just my problems. Maybe an uplifting article about something good for a change is what this site needs. The positive future is a much better thing to focus on than the past.
Im asumming this post is going to be deleted, like Nicole's was, but I don't mind, delete it for all I care, because what I have to say is not that important, but important enough for David to write a whole article about my trials and tribulations.
You're right, the Laure Manaudou story is far more interesting than is yours. Um, that's what this post is actually about.
and you're lying about not getting anywhere near your 500 freestyle time with David.
Nowhere Near? Tell the truth
State HS 2006 Final
13 Templin, Alison JR Suncoast 5:05.38 5:04.20
WOW! its quite amazing when you have to defend your own story. The state finals meet was my 5:04 DUH! In rolls the next season and Im going 5:10's.
AGAIN, get over it.
And to the first anonymous, who do you think the whole chart in the article is about? Who's mother do you think David was describing as crazy?
Look, Im not trying to pick a fight or anything. I just want to tell my story to people who may have been mislead. Thats it. And its unfair to judge why a swimmer changes teams, you don't always know the circumstances.
Alison
what percent of the team in delray beach are people from other teams?
Club sluts, if you will?
1%,5%,50%?
To clarify, "club sluts" were the people who went through four or five teams in the matter of a year or so. They existed in large numbers in New Zealand in the 90s; I knew of one family who'd lived in both Auckland and Wellington and who'd joined and left the majority of those two towns' teams. Stop being so damn sensitive, people: Unless you fit this description, I wasn't referring to any one of you in particular.
As far as deleting comments goes, the one Alison refers to contained some potentially libelous and unsubstantiated claims. This wasn't the place to make such claims and therefore, on the advice of others, they were removed.
your comment makes it look like 5:04 was your best time before you went to aqua crest and then you couldnt get anywhere near it when you were there. that's misleading! Read your comment again. Thats exactly how you make it sound.
Also, so what, you're swimming 5:10 the next season? No-one gets to swim their best times right away the next season. You sound like you made a big mistake.
only time will tell.....
Alison
The blogs from Alison Templin are very interesting. It’s worth pointing out the following:
1. I don’t know what time zone the blog is set for, whether is Eastern, Central, Mountain or Pacific time but the posts marked 3.42, 3.43 and especially 7.35 are noticeable because if they are from the swimmer, I would have expected her to either be at morning practice or at school. West Palm Beach time would make those posts 6.42, 6.43 and 10.35. Are you sure you’re the writer Alison?
2. “I find this whole article very hurtful considering the fact that its about me.”
This is not true – more than half the article is about Laure Manaudou. The article is concerned with the ethics of moving coaches/clubs not you in particular. You happen to be a recent example.
3. “But soon I wasn't getting ANYWHERE near my 5:04 time in the 500 Freestyle, and I could only swim a fast 200. I realized that maybe Davids program wasn't working for me”.
Given what you should know about David’s training program (you have read his books and listened to him talk about training) you know that at the beginning of the racing season you don’t swim personal bests. David’s training is carefully tailored to get swimmers doing personal bests at the peak of the racing season – as he did with you in the HS season. In addition, if you consider 5 seconds slower than your best at the beginning of the racing season to be not “getting ANYWHERE”, you are clearly very greedy for results. For the athlete to be that close to their personal best at the beginning or even middle of the racing season is a very good sign that the training is working and that the previous build-up has worked.
There is no way you can ever know whether or not David’s program worked for you – you never did it. The first 6-9 months were rehabilitation and the next 9 months were rebuilding. You never gave the program a chance because you bailed out before it had a chance.
4. “I was the one that wanted to move, nobody made me.”
This paragraph is probably the most interesting in the whole post. The time it took you to drive to the various locations is irrelevant. Hundreds of athletes all over the world drive long distances for training. It’s not an issue. Your litany of reasons for leaving clubs is the issue. You make is sound as if when the various coaches became ill or left, there was no coach and no club so you had no choice. Re NPB, a terrific coach, Dick Cavanah has been there for many years and is still there. Re FAST, Allan Williams has been there for many years and is still there. In other words there was always a coach and a club, but you still chose to leave. However, most significantly you omit mention of Lake Lytal. Why did you choose not to mention either your previous membership of Lake Lytal or your reason for leaving?
5. “I wish that David would just let the whole ordeal go…”
There is no ordeal about this issue – it is just another part swimming’s rich tapestry.
6. “…but important enough for David to write a whole article about my trials and tribulations.”
No, Alison, the whole article is not about you or your “trials and tribulations”. “Trials and tribulations” imply real difficulty. You are talking about you changing from one swim team to another.
In conclusion Alison, it’s a pity you didn’t have the good manners to talk to David about your training and your perceived problems with it. The only notice he received was a phone call from your mother saying you had left. She baulked at telling David where you were going – said she didn’t know. I found that difficult to believe. There were personnel changes at Aqua Crest which you and your mother didn’t like and made no secret of not liking. It was noticeable that from that time on your attitude towards Aqua Crest changed. Are you quite sure you are being honest when you cite David’s training as the reason you left? As you say: “you don't always know the circumstances.” and “only time will tell.”
You, your coach and your mother have now put you under immense pressure to perform.
In other news, who actually thinks Laure Manaudou's decision to move to Turin was a good one? What about Liesel Jones' recent move from Brisbane to Melbourne, the home of her boyfriend? These are two World Record holders who have shifted across state and country lines, respectively, for (among other reasons) boyfriends.
My view is that this isn't always a good idea, although I only had to put up with an eighty mile drive between where I lived and where my boyfriend was going to university. Swimmers, would you be tempted to move away from a successful coach and program in order to take the "long distance" out of "relationship"?
Alison Templin, is there someone on Lake Lytal with whom you have a relationship with and you are pulling a "Manaudou"?
:)
G. Andrews
Why drag the conversation back to the Alison story when no-one outside of south florida obviously wants to hear about it anymore?
“Why drag the conversation back to the Alison story when no-one outside of south florida obviously wants to hear about it anymore?”
How interesting. "Anonymous" doesn't want to hear any more about Alison Templin's story. Quite how "anonymous" can claim what the population outside South Florida wants is a mystery. This also implies that the population of South Florida does want to hear Alison’s story.
No where in the article is the name Alison Templin mentioned. Alison Templin decided to claim the story was all about her - when it isn't.
When she is asked some questions - both difficult and frivolous - suddenly "anonymous" pops up and cries "enough".
I think this person's observation might have been aimed at G Andrew's comment?
Who's ready for a new post? *raises hand*
Thanks for the link! As for the Manaudou story... news just in from Canet is that Camelia Potec has switched to training with Philippe Lucas now. Undoubtedly, he will be thinking of her as a potential to beat Manaudou. I foresee Canet become a breeding ground for excellence, much like Canberra in the 90s.
Alison...
First of all, I do not appreciate you coming onto this board and "bashing" this wonderful coach. This man has more integrity in his little pinkie than any coach I have ever met. I guess all I can say is that it is definitely your loss!
Not only is David a world class coach, he is also an educator. He is interested and concerned about each and every one of his swimmers.
Maybe you need to take a look at yourself and re-evaluate what it is you really are looking for.
KIA KAHA!
Mary
i dont think alison templin meant to attack david or his post, she felt as if she was being singled out even if the article wasnt about her. she was defending herself, although it may not have been her, which would be many of your natural reactions. on another note, id like to see if potec can come out on top in beijing.
-robertnole
And i enjoyed kohli's article, especially the netball, though swimming and football were close seconds
robertnole
It will be interesting to see if Potec can come out on top considering her time that won the Olympic gold was barely in the top 5 at this past World champs...
and nat would have won with her 4x20o lead off leg
robertnole
"Bashing this wonderful coach"
what a joke
"Potentially libelous" Jane you guys sure love to throw that around when someone says something you disagree with (or dont want heard) like the truth. Yes they truth could hurt David, I will agree with that.
Alison Templin - I feel for you, but you are just another one of the bodies trampled on by the Wright Family, not the first and wont be the last.
And believe me there have been a lot more than one postings removed because they did not like what was said about them.
Mary
You are on another planet where reality does not exists
I keep reading your post
it never ceases to amaze me the power this guy has over people
truly amazing
he is very very good (at certain things) I will give him that
but caring about people aside from himself and his daughter, or those that AT THE MOMENT he can use for his gain, he is not very good.
Anonymous, somehow I get the feeling you are the anonymous from the post about the "discipline continues". I am really sorry you hold so much hatred for someone who has done so much for others. If other people are happy with the way David runs things, and how open-minded he is, and how he doesn't hold anything back, why rain on their parade? So you dislike the way David is, and how he handles situations, and you think he is all fake and that business, well please for the sake of the people that like him and have the utmost respect for him, shut up. Or at least have the balls to post who you really are so I can attack you properly.
Agreed with Rhi,
The swimmer and the coach (especially as older, more mature, thinking for themselves type of athletes) have a relationship that extends beyond writing workouts, reading workouts, and implementing workouts.
The swimmer is in there busting his or her's arse, an intelligent athlete knows what works for him or her...allow the swimmer to train where he or she feels they are making progress towards whatever goals they may be trying to achieve.
If things aren't working in pool A with coach A, whether in the training plan or the interpersonal relationship between coach & swimmers, then allow them to try a different environment that will hopefully allow them to prosper.
There are many decent coaches in the South Florida area who have seen athletes utilize their talent to their potential...whether that talent takes them only to the Jr. Olympics or to the Olympic Games. You have been blessed with a talent that has given you the potential to reach the later, and you feel David W. is the man to help guide you there...that is your perogative. Others feel someone else may be the coach to help guide them (Dara T. and Michael Lohberg, Lochte and Greg Troy, etc. etc.)despite their past efforts with other coaches.
As one who has coached his daughter since she began swimming, I can't tell you how excited I am for her to train in a new enviroment, with a new coach, new athletes, new training methodologies, etc. She is ready to go and take her swimming to the next level and she is very excited about the change. Time and results will speak for themselves as to whether the change was good and productive.
G Andrews
Exactly G. What works for me, might not work for someone else. And who I get along with someone else might loathe. This is the right fit for me at this point in my life, and I find it childish and ignorant for someone who does not agree with David's principles (as a coach or, as it seems, a person) to try and come on here and anonymously try to get everyone to think he is some huge a**hole. One other thing, anonymous, why exactly is David so fake, and how exactly did he ruin other poeple's lives? You come on here accusing David of being this horrible person, but you have no once explained to us why. How are we supposed to take your word for anything when all you are doing is yelling empty insults? A lot of people thought my old coach (Scott) ruined their lives by picking up and moving away, or by just being the "push until you can't push anymore" kind of guy, but he is one of the people that I love most in the world and have the utmost respect for. Just because YOU think David is a fake jerk, does not mean the rest of the world has to. At least EXPLAIN why you are making these claims.
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